My initial reaction to this was to not respond. Beucase I think this is
all bullshit, because I’m really really sick and tired of writing 8
page defenses and because I think you’re not actually saying anything
worthwhile. But then I remembered that what I said was that I was not
going to back down, and I’m going to stand by my word no matter how
much don’t want to hear it. If you were as openminded as you preach to
be, you would be open to this argument. But you’re not. So whatever.
I’ll continue to do what I’m doing until I think that I’ve made a
difference. I’m not going to pretend like I’m above fighting and
neither should you. We’ve both said a lot of shit and you can’t back
away from that now.
My main and huge argument with everything
you said just recently is: WHAT IS THIS GAY LIFESTYLE OF WHICH YOU
SPEAK AND HOW IS IT DIFFERENT FROM WHAT I WAS TALKING ABOUT?
is my question. You realize that you actually are being intolerant and
the only way out of it is to change the word and “oh maybe Lauren won’t
notice because “gay lifestyle” seems to sound more political” when
really…it’s not. It’s a dumb phrase. What does that MEAN. WHAT DOES
THAT MEAN. The “gay lifestyle” is EXACTLY what I was talking about.
That’s what I was talking about. Being gay. Being gay.
what you say is completely ridiculous. Completely ridiculous. And some
part of you should know that. And if not, you can reread everything
that’s been said and see that what you’re saying has no foundation. So
some things I’m not even going to respond to because I’m so tired of
AND there’s a HUGE difference between saying that I
thought you were attacking me personally and saying that I take this
topic and argument very personally.
“And I don’t even want to share this with you now because I don’t even trust you now”
is that such an awful thing to say? How can I trust you now when I’ve
been told that you went around behind my back after I went home and
bitched to EVERYONE about me? No I don’t trust you now after this whole
ordeal. Not that I don’t trust you as a person, but I don’t trust you
to keep and honor the thing that I was saying in that sentence. That
SENTENCE. It was a complete thought and you can’t cut it off halfway
through to prove a point. And no, it’s not devil’s spawn what I wrote.
What I wrote was that I was questioning my own sexuality after all of
this and THAT was why I was taking this whole argument so personally.
Is that that hard to understand? Is that that evil? Why is it that you
only commented on the first part of that sentence and the whole thing?
Because heaven forbid you accept the fact that all this stuff you’ve
been saying against gay people could actually also apply to me? Because
that’s gross? Whatever. Be brave and face the facts.
that if you can deter me enough from your original point and the
original argument that I’m suddenly going to give up my valid argument
and agree with you? What does this random, slightly once again
condescending rant about how I don’t understand Catholicism now have to
do with what I said. I was referring to the flaws in Christianity as a
whole, and in the flaws in the Bible, not whether or not you’re a
Christian or a Catholic. Does it really matter, if we’re talking about
the “religious issue.” So then what are you saying? The only thing I
can try to think is that you’re trying to get out of my blatant facts
by making a minor point that you’re Catholic and not Christian and that
somehow means that what I said did not pertain to you. If it’s not what
I was saying…then what EXACTLY is it in your “incomprehensible”
Catholic faith that prevents you from accepting gays OTHER than what is
in the Bible. Giving the Adam and Eve excuse is NOT exempting you from
saying it’s about the Bible. Yes. That’s the same Bible that I was
referring to talking about Christianity. That’s the same excuse. Only
it’s slightly more vague. And here is the question I pose. So what? So
what if that’s what “seems natural” because it’s a man and a woman.
Just because (and yes, I DO know the creation story, thanks for
clearing that one up for me too) god creating woman after man does not
inherently mean that that’s the ONLY way it’s supposed to be. That does
not mean that man cannot be with man and women cannot be with women.
Nothing in the Bible says THAT specifically so how is that a Catholic
faith argument that I somehow missed? I also don’t understand how you
can make the gay gene argument suddenly a fact because it’s your
opinion. I neither stated that it was a fact or a falsehood, merely
that it’s a theory currently unproven, so you really can’t say one
thing either way. You can’t say because I “believe” it’s untrue it is.
saying that you can’t believe this, but I do find it interesting that
you said “so to say that god ‘made’ gay people is incorrect.” After you
had previously said “God made them.” You actually said both things.
Seriously going off on these religious tangents does not help your case. It just makes you sound condescending to me.
“i mean god made you and i.”
can you say that to me if I don’t believe in God? If I don’t believe in
your god. That’s not what I believe! That’s what you believe. Sorry.
You just can’t make assumptions like that.
“the universe was created by god so men and women would love each other, and live in peace.”
Love? Peace? Remind me again why gays are not in god’s plan for the world? Why do they not get the same love and peace?
to say that it was god’s will to ‘create’ gay people is not only
somehting i would strongly disagree with, but also something that’s
The gene argument is not proven or
disproven! You can’t honestly say that it’s physically impossible. I
did not go so far to say that the gene argument was true, I said
neither I nor you can know for sure so you can’t make assumptions like
So now you think after you’ve taken the Lord’s name in
vain and written offensive things, that now the good decision is to
write a vague religious argument because there’s no way to counter it
because it’s spiritual and it’s something you believe and I can’t
disprove your beliefs. Well the point of MY argument was that it was
not about the religious issue. That it doesn’t matter WHAT religion you
happen to be, that you should support WHOEVER is gay because that’s
right. You can’t say, I don’t believe it just because it’s in the
Bible, it’s for other mysterious “Catholic faith” reasons that you
couldn’t possibly understand and then go straight back to the Bible.
Can’t hide behind the Bible, babe. And suddenly you make it ALL about
the religious issue.
I gave my reasons why I think the Bible
excuse is faulty…and instead of saying why the Bible excuse is
right…you went off on some huge random tangent about creationism? Wtf?
As if I’ve never heard about it before…or as if I don’t know what your
“God” entails. I got it. I know what your “God” is. This is all besides
You initiated this by no, not attacking ME…I
specifically wrote 8 pages about why this was NOT about you OR me after
YOU used that boo-hoo don’t attack me argument YOURSELF…but by yes,
writing something that bashes my opinions on this topic. And if I think
your opinions are wrong, I do not think it’s inappropriate to tell you
If you’re all “born into sin” then what the hell is the
point of it anyway. I’m sorry, but my defense would “attack” your
religion and I don’t want to be accused of “attacking” your religion
because so far I have not actually attacked your religion. The point
is, if we’re all “sinners”…and your religion is all about
“forgiveness”…then doesn’t that just cancel each other out? Then
shouldn’t you just “forgive” and “love” gay people regardless of their
“sin?” That’s what I said in my argument before and you seemed to
disregard it. I don’t understand how a religion like that can
function…thinking it’s doing good for everyone if not everyone believes
it. Are all people who are born Jewish sent immediately to hell just
because they don’t happen to follow your PARTICULAR religion even
though they all seem to preach the same basic principles? I don’t
understand. I’m sorry, I’m sorry it’s off topic…but YOUR argument was
completely off topic so I think it’s justified.
sorry. You don’t need to preach to me. Honestly, this argument,
disguised as a “Listen to me I’m in touch with God and you’re not” is
really just to distract the fact that this ISN’T an argument…it’s a
rant about your religion. And I’m sorry, but I was not fighting about
your religion. I fought against your argument in relation to the
Bible…but I NEVER EVER attacked your religion. So why are you trying to
“teach” me what your religion is all about?
That argument went about 50 different directions and I think you know that and I think you know why.
“i don’t condone a gay lifestyle. because i personally just don’t think it’s natural for people to be gay”
WHAT EXACTLY IS A “GAY LIFESTYLE” AND HOW IS IT DIFFERENT FROM BEING GAY?????!!!??!?
are you talking about!? You nor anyone else has ever defined to me what
a “gay lifestyle” is…and the fact that you deem it “gay lifestyle”
proves that you don’t think that it’s equal to yours. That somehow
their sexuality makes the way that they live their life (I’m not
talking literally, I’m talking figuratively) somehow different. And
what does that mean. I think you’re just using that and grouping it
with “gay marriage” (which, by the way, I went OUT of my way to say
that it not only wasn’t about gay marriage, but that I understand if
you don’t support gay marriage because that’s a political issue not an
ethical one) to make it sound like you’re suddenly talking about
something else. And now suddenly you DO support “gay people” and you
don’t support a “gay lifestyle.” First tell me what exactly a gay
lifestyle is, and then tell me how it’s different from a “gay life” or
a “gay person” and then try to make that argument.
able to form my own religious opinions, and not live word by word from
the bible or from catholicism…that doesn’t mean i’m a ‘bad
christian’… it means that i want my god to be PERSONAL.”
original argument at the beginning, why it wasn’t about the bible was
because it was some aloof “Catholic” thing that didn’t have to do with
“Christian” things. And now it’s because of some “personal religious
opinion” well what and don’t give me some vague “it’s adam and eve not
adam and steve” or “creationism is good and you couldn’t possibly
Let me clear something up. I UNDERSTAND your
religion. I UNDERSTAND IT. I don’t personally believe it. So stop
treating me like a child. I wouldn’t be making accusations about it if
I didn’t have a clue what I was talking about. I feel like I’m more
qualified to talk about “your” religion than you are to talk about “my”
beliefs because I was raised Christian, I up until THIS summer
considered myself a Christian and personally realized for myself that I
don’t BELIEVE in what I had been told and decided to look into a
variety of other things. You on the other hand, have been raised with
one belief, and as much as you may “question Catholism” you are very
much Catholic and regardless of that, you have never tried to open your
mind to supporting gays or gay tolerance, whereas I actually have tried
to open my mind to accepting Christianity.
It’s not some vague
mystical personal beliefs that we’re fighting over…it’s gay tolerance,
and gay intolerance only…and if there’s some unknown hidden “Catholic”
or “Erica” thing about your “beliefs”…please, by all means, enlighten
me…but don’t just ramble about the divinity of God and act like that’s
some sort of valid argument against me.
“so if you want me to just give you a lot of random quotes from the bible… i will.”
sorry, but I don’t feel like I gave you a lot of random quotes from the
Bible. I feel like I gave some valid points about using the Bible as a
defense mechanism for not accepting gays. Gays. Gay people. Gay
identity. Gay lifestyle. Whatever you want to call it. You know what
I’m saying so don’t try to act like the words mean different things.
Yeah and the rest of that quote just made no sense whatsoever so I
don’t even have a response to that.
“that’s how i really feel
about that. and if you can’t accept that as my view on god and on
religion…. and you can’t understand that it actually DOES play a role
in the way i perceive gay people… then please don’t argue with me.
becasue i just explained in more than enough detail my stance. that
should be enough.”
I’m really sorry, but I don’t know really at
all what it is that you said that was so helpful or groundbreaking. To
be honest I don’t really know what you said at all.
AM I INTOLERANT AGAINST GAY PEOPLE? and acutally… it’s kind of
confusing how you say that i don’t view gays as people… but that i
just view them as an entity of GAYNESS. that’s ENTIRELY the opposite of
what i was trying to say. this arguemtn was not about PEOPLE. it was
about ACTIONS. LIFESTYLE. which i have EVERY right to disagree with.
strongly. so what you’re tyring to tell me… is that just becasue i
disagree with your ‘truth’… that i am intolerant? well is it not
blatnatly obvious how entirely hypocritical and intolerant that
sounds?? descrimination? explain please. never NEVER did i say i
descriminated against gay people. DISAGREEING AND NOT SUPPORTING A LIFE
STYLE IS NOT THE SAME AS HATING, DESCRIMINATING, OR DISRESPECTING A
PERSON! i’m tired of saying it. but that is the only so called ‘TRUTH’
You really don’t get what I said at all and that
really upsets me. I really really do think that you are intolerant of
gay people if you continue to sit there and say that you disagree
strongly with their actions and lifestyle. That’s people. You’re trying
to say that I’m talking about who they are as individuals. I
SPECIFICALLY said I wasn’t talking about individuals. I’m saying their
identity AS gay person. Their identity in that they are gay. You’re not
making a point you’re just proving MINE. That you AREN’T tolerant. That
you’re trying to say that you’re tolerant now and have been tolerant
all along of “gay people” but not of “gay lifestyle.” WHAT IS THE
DIFFERENCE. I DON’T UNDERSTAND. YES. I think the fact that you
“strongly disagree” with a “gay lifestyle” is discrimination and
“but just to let you know i am NOT intolerant. if
the way you’re using “intolerance” means not accepting a gay lifestyle.
just like i don’t accept other types of lifestyles. and just as i’m
sure YOU too don’t accept other lifestyles.. then sure call me
intolerant. but if you’re talking about PEOPLE. PEOPLE as
INDIVIDUALS… not PEOPLE as GAYS… than i am in NO way intolerant.
show me where i said i viewed actual GAY INDIVIDUALS as lesser parts of
our species. until you can show me that, your arguement holds no
Omg. WHAT ON EARTH IS THIS GAY LIFESTYLE THAT YOU’RE
TALKING ABOUT AND HOW IS IT DIFFERENT FROM GAY PEOPLE? No. No. No. I
said QUITE specifically that I WASN’T making broad statements about who
they were as individuals. But YES. To discriminate against a PERSON for
a part of their identity, for their sexuality, for their “lifestyle” as
you call it now, yes, I do think that’s intolerant and yes I do think
that it’s wrong to be intolerant. You’re either
don’t…I’m not even fully sure if you really believe all those things
you said…or if you just said them because they were the only kind of
argument you had.”
what??? so now you’re tyring to tell me i don’t even BELIEVE what i’m saying”
with assumptions. That was referring to the fact that I hoped you
didn’t actually want to stand by the argument you were giving, the
biased, hateful argument you were giving. NOTHING there said anything
about how you were raised.
“alienated among people who think i’m intolerant becasue they are mindless? quite possibly.”
You earlier tried to defend your remark about being mindless and then
use it AGAIN. Classic. Classic. Really good job there.
“was that you had no value whatsoever or respect for my emotions.”
don’t see how you can say that when you did it first to me. No. You did
not write it DIRECTED at me, however you know that I read your xanga
and that I’m one of the only people that reads your xanga and that if
you write something scathing like that, I’m GOING to read it. It was
almost definitely subconsciously directed at me.
“first off all… for you to write a ‘fourteen page essay’ about ME”
Here we go again…making it ALLLLL about you. The essay was NOT about
you. The essay was about gay tolerance and if you make me say that one
“when i never wrote anything about YOU!!!.. i
wrote about ME and the way the I was treated. if you don’t want
something to personal… well gee i don’t know.. don’t put my NAME in
the title of the essay, for starters. “
Hahahahahah. I’m not even going to say it because you know what I’m going to say and if you don’t then I’m sorry.
does it really show any bravery or resoluteness on your part to write
this big bad essay about me online? think about that. why’d you do it
lauren? was it because you didn’t have the courage to say any of this
to my face?”
Um. No. It’s because I wasn’t with you…and there was no
way I was going to get to you to say it to your face. And I also stated
at the beginning WHY I did it the way I did. So that I could calm down
and not just spout off angry nonsense at you and actually calmly
assemble my thoughts into something well founded for you to read. And
yes, for ANYONE to read. Because the more people I can help to change,
the better. I would love for anyone and everyone to read what I wrote
because I do FIRMLY stand by it and what it means and I hope that
anyone could actually think about what I said. And um. Duh. Your “big
bad” stuff was all written online too. What’s the argument there?
it because maybe you didn’t even believe what you were saying enough to
speak those very words? or was it just because it’s easier to rip apart
somebody with words instead of using your ACTIONS… actions, such as
confronting me directly about this…? and NOT having to go to other
people and then send them on their way to put their two cents into
This is sort of the most amusing stuff I’ve ever read. I
didn’t want to bring this up because I didn’t feel the need to make
this about anything other than you and your opinions, but on Friday,
before I posted this I got into a RAVING debate with everyone in my
advisor group about this. Amy was there and she can vouch for me. I
argued against all the people there because I believed it was right.
And even though me and Amy were the only ones on my side, I stood up to
them all because what I said actually had merit. And I also saw that
when I verbalized it, it didn’t often come out the way I wanted it to.
But I feel that way about anything and everything. I don’t verbalize
very well. And the way my mind works so all over the place, I knew if I
wanted to say something coherent to you, the best way would be to write
it down. And what are you talking about confronting you? May I remind
you that YOU never said anything to me on Friday either. We never saw
each other and there was no reason I was going to see you over the
weekend so why is it so unreasonable to write it all down for you? I
don’t understand this argument either.
And yes. Because the ENTIRE
argument is online for the ENTIRE world to see. Time stamped and
everything. And since I strongly believe everything I said, I have
nothing to hide and I have no reason to be ashamed. Anyone can read it,
go for it.
Can you say that for yourself? If you thought
EVERYTHING you said was true and well founded, you wouldn’t have a
problem with anyone saying anything about any argument of yours. So why
is it that you’re now complaining about other people who have read ALL
the evidence and are on my side?
HAH. I find it soooo funny that you
keep acting so innocent. Now, I cannot be held completely accountable
for this…no offense to Amy…but there’s no way to know if this is the
COMPLETE truth because it’s just word of mouth…but Amy said that after
I went home on Friday you went to everyone and complained and bitched
to them about how I had attacked you and your beliefs…now who’s
bringing other people in on it? If you felt so strongly about yourself,
you wouldn’t need to make a disclaimer for everyone, you could let your
words stand for themselves…and I do know that you said something that
was not completely unbiased to Jeremy because of the way he treated me
without even having known the full situation…so no I cannot say that
this “going behind my back and complaining to everyone” is a complete
fact because I don’t have proof…but considering you complain to
everyone about EVERYTHING else…I don’t see why it would be so hard to
believe. AND I don’t see why I can’t just ask anyone else and get the
truth. And the fact is, you know in your heart if you said anything to
anyone that was not necessary, and if you do know in your heart and you
argue this point against me, then there is something wrong with you.
and because if we talk face to face it’s SO easy to twist words.
There’s no proof of who said what. Are you really that afraid of me
having proof of what you said?
Oh and I like how you again throw in
a little thing to Amy, probably because at this point you think she’s
reading all of this and she’ll get pissed off and side with you at that
snide little comment. Again. I don’t have to bring anyone else into my
argument, and you do, I wonder why that is.
“you TOTALLY misinterpreted my argument. and even misinterpreted the fact that it WAS an argument. against YOU”
This really is getting comical. Like I honestly don’t know why you’re
making these kinds of arguments when the facts against you are RIGHT
there on the page. And even if you try to delete them or change them on
the site, I have the original text all saved on my hard drive. I was
the one who said that this was an argument about gay tolerance. YOU
were the one who said it was a personal attack. I said that I take this
“i never said anything about gays as PEOPLE… i jsut don’t support the LIFESTYLE.”
said, in fact, it was about “gay people” not gays AS people. That
doesn’t even make sense. How could I fight for a group of anonymous
individuals and their character? I was talking, actually, about the GAY
LIFESTYLE which you are against. Just because you change the word
doesn’t cancel out everything you’ve said and suddenly make you
“becasue of a few paragraphs that i wrote that you totally misinterpreted in the first place”
How did I misinterpret them? Tell me, instead what you meant by what you said?
“feeling overcome by a direct hate by somebody i thought cared enough about me to not mock me publicly.”
on earth did I ever say I had a direct hate for you? Seriously. You
exaggerate SOOO much it’s scary. I did not mock you publicly! As I
recall, you are the one who mocked my publicly to my friends. I argued
with you on our respective xangas. YOU “publicly” wrote just as much
shit about me and I “publicly” did about you, so you really can stop
“and you claim that the only reason you did this is becasue you ‘cared about me’”
never claimed that the only reason I did this was because I cared about
you. What I said is that I wouldn’t have made such a big deal about
this to someone I didn’t care about. The reason I did this was because
I believed I was right and I really, really, really hoped I could
change your mind. Guess not.
“but somebody who cares about someody else doesn’t do this behind their back. posting it online.”
is posting something online doing it behind your back? I’ve already
listed the reasons why I wrote it down. Did you want me to IM you with
it so that it came it weird huge paragraphs or did you want to get into
a pointless fight back and forth with me. Or did you possibly want to
do it on AIM so that there wouldn’t be proof for anyone else to read
about how intolerant you’ve been.
“before you do something as
drastic and headstrong and really, just heartless, as to write a
fourteen page long essay degrading them. and don’t just say this was
‘not attacking you but your opinions and your intolerance.’ because
that’s not true and you know it.”
I don’t understand. How is writing
down my opinions heartless, headstrong, and drastic? The reason it was
so long was because I had A LOT to say and I actually didn’t want to
make a vague, factless argument and actually wanted something backed up
to every degree I could think of so that there were no holes in it.
again again instead of posing a counterpoint to my argument you just
try to say why this is about our friendship, why this whole thing is
dumb, and why creationism is good.
“and i just ‘answered’.. i feel
a majority of what you wanted me to answer. if not, it was because i
really don’t have the time to write this all up online.”
No. No you
didn’t. I specifically posed questions to you and you didn’t answer
them. Online is not an excuse. If you don’t have the time to write it
up online, where do you have the time for it?
“el now, as if i’ve
not only ‘answered’ the questions you’ve asked me… but i’ve also
propsed a few ideas that might just resolve this for us… or at least
get us on that type of track… “
What few ideas did you propose? A
face to face confrontation? Honestly I don’t know why talking about
this face to face will be any different except that there is no time to
cool off and gather your thoughts and it will most likely tumble into a
yelling fight that is just fueled by anger and not much else. Every
time I read something you wrote I was very angry and annoyed and I
would wait hours and hours to calm down and gather my thoughts before
saying my next response. And even that didn’t come out completely
calmly and unbiased. Personally, I think a face to face confrontation
would be a complete disaster. That’s just my personal opinion.
me clear something up, I don’t quote you to make you feel bad. I quote
you because I want both you and I to know what it is I’m exactly
talking about and what was ACTUALLY said before saying something so
that I can’t hide behind vague arguments and manipulations of words. If
you feel bad, it’s most likely because you end up feeling bad about
what you wrote. If you REALLY believed everything you said and you
REALLY believed that everything I said was wrong, you would have no
problem with me quoting and arguing with you because you would have a
valid response to it other than “stop attacking me” “you’re hurting me”
or “you’re misinterpreting me.” I think everything is pretty blatant
and that I really haven’t misinterpreted anything you’ve said. But I
guess I’m biased.
i won’t mention the ‘ball being in your court
now’… or the ‘decision being up to you’… but i will resign myself
from this arguement.
So I gave you that option and you chose to choose nothing? How much good does that do us?
I swear. The ONLY thing I’m fighting and the only thing I’ve been
fighting from the very beginning is GAY TOLERANCE. That’s ALL I want. I
don’t want to defeat you. I don’t want you to cry. I don’t want to end
our friendship. I just want you to be tolerant of gays. Of “gay
people.” Of people with a “gay identity.” Of a “gay lifestyle.” I never
said anything about gay marriage. I’m talking about GAY. TOLERANCE.
GAY. TOLERANCE. GAY. TOLERANCE. How many more times do I need to say it
before you get it?
It’s three in the morning and I don’t
actually feel like it’s wrong of me to continue to argue my point if I
strongly believe in and you still aren’t seeing my point. So if you
want to continue to talk about random bullshit and try to make this
into something its not, I’ll keep going at you, but this is all I have
THIS. IS. ABOUT. GAY. TOLERANCE. GAY. TOLERANCE. GAY. TOLERANCE.
you can get that…and until you can at least open your mind to my point
of view, or try to talk about some productive way of ending this, I’m
not going to give up. Sorry.